|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 13, 2006 10:48:41 GMT -5
I have plans in the works to go back to Waverly as we speak(or type in this case) aneaglesangel. It will be a while but thats ok, because that will give me more time to round up even better tools to use.
Now Frity, my temper is not the scientist part of me, it's my biker side that comes out when I have to keep answering the same question over and over. As a scientist I have no problem with questions if they are well thought out and have merit on the topic. As far as this being " fun ", then your into investigating ( thats even if you do) the paranormal for the wrong reasons and shows that YOU should not be taken seriously . Fun can be part of it, but truth and answers are the real goal. You may, (or most likely) may not know that many people have been seriously hurt and even killed investigating the fields of the paranormal.( some of them have been friend of mine and a few died trying to find those answers) I have had my house broken into, research and samples stolen and they even tried burn down the house after to cover thier tracks. I was threatened and shot at buy others that want to keep parts of the paranormal from the public eye, so thinking this is all fun and games will get you hurt or even killed. Now about Troy Taylor's Scientific envi(r)onment and the Phillip case, well I meet Troy years ago and that case is old news and does not really apply to this case, as I was not at the time of the footage looking for anything only setting up a shot. In the Phillip case they "made up" a spirit and wished to see if "it" could interact with others outside of the lab. This kind of experiment has a big flaw in it, that being they assume that it is thier creation and can not be sure that "something" did not become attracted to what they did and take on the role of "Phillip". Over 5000 years ago this would be known as conjuring up a spirit sometimes with some really bad outcomes for those that did (read up on pagan rituals), so this is far from a new idea. I don't need to or wish to fight with you Fritz, as a matter fact, I would like to be able to help you if you let me. I have been doing this a looooong time and been places and have seen things that even I can not yet understand even with all those years of experiance and training behind me. You could make a great investigator if you listen to and learn from others that have gone before you. I'm sorry for comming across as a hardass, I just did not wish to have your honest mistake get out of hand. You have the potential to go far in this field if you wish to, you just need a little more guidence from others in the field. You have read many books on the topic I'm sure, but there is no replacement for a mentor in this subject matter. I was lucky, for when I started over 20 years ago a friend of mine who had done it for 30 years before me, showed me the way. He pointed out all the traps (and I still stepped in them because I thought I knew better back then) and all the wonders of the field(and there are many). If you can find a mentor in your area then I think (no, I know) you will go far because you have it in you. I will leave you with my mentors first words on the topic all those many year ago that I have never found more true, " For every step you take towards the unkown, it takes two towards you......" . I truly wish you luck in all your endevors and hope all your dreams and wishes come true. If you wish, I will help you any way I can in finding answers or point you in the right direction in the very least. Happy hunting !!!!
Matt
|
|
fritzy
New Member
Knowledge gained is not Knowledge understood, it is only Gained
Posts: 25
|
Post by fritzy on Aug 13, 2006 11:44:11 GMT -5
Matt your a real person. And I might add a very very knowledgable one. I am in awe that you wrote what you wrote in your last post. I also thank you for writing it. You are right its no joke. I myself know it isn't but portray it to be not to come to close to it. I myself like you have had lets say experiences. I lost everything over another subject matter that you are very knowledgable in which is UFO's and to me there is a very powerful connection between the two subjects and the paranormal activity involved in both subject matters. I wont get into details about the losses. I just stopped all resarch for a couple of years. Im sort of trying to come up again and get back on with my search. Oh by the way the search is a personal thing which I have found some answers to. Not all the answers though. I will be honored to keep in touch with you and discuss such matters. Heck im even willing to go on your next trip to Waverly just to watch. Think it would be a fantastic experience.
|
|
|
Post by aneaglesangel on Aug 13, 2006 12:01:53 GMT -5
Hey Matt, is there any way I could read about this "Phillip" case? Sounds interesting, is there any sources on the internet, or a book? I'd like to know more and hmm, did they spontaneously manifest, or did they conjure, unbeknownst to them??
I'm glad that this is ended in such a great way! I think it's very important to work together in this field! Many ideas are outlandish or hard to believe, but as I go further in this field, I find they just don't seem so impossible any more!! It's funny that you say you were out of the field for a while fritzy and I admit, it does make me curious, LOL! It's just that I was out of the field too, for some personal reasons also, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't stay out of the field. As Matt says, for every step.....
I think and it may sound funny, but the people who are being strongly drawn into this field are being drawn for a reason. I think maybe it is time for the science to move forward, or maybe for us to move forward in a spiritual way. Whatever the answer, pretty much all the people I've met in the field seem to get into it because they are drawn into it. Many have even tried to leave it as both of us have, only to be drawn back in again!
I love the idea of you guys working together like this! More of the field needs to do this for us all to go forward! I really do hope to see what comes of another trip to Waverly, and boy, do I ever wish I could go there!! I don't normally admit things to everyone, mostly my more metaphysical friends on the internet, but that place, I have to say has a serious vibe. If I'd known what in the world was happening to me when they showed the old clips I would have tried to go with it and see if I could have gotten more information from the feelings. But all I can say, is the footage they showed on the TV special about Waverly Hills set off a big time empathic event! I'm dying to have the show come on again, to see if I can go with it next time, I wonder what will happen!! It's too bad I had no clue, and it's just evidence that the work I'm experimenting with is having results, that I didn't go with it at the time. I have no way of knowing if it will happen again when I see that footage, but I'm willing to try!! Goood luck guys!! And if you happen to find an angel hiding in your luggage when ya get down to Waverly, don't be surprised!!!
|
|
|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 13, 2006 18:58:02 GMT -5
Fritz, the honor would be mine to work with you. I am just getting back in the field after losing everything myself like, jobs a wife and untold amount of money and friends seeking answers. I know how you feel, and it sucks to re-live some of the pain that almost killed me, but I'm not alone in my search anymore. I have found lots of new friends in this field and reconnected with a few old ones as well. You are kinda like me in the fact that the pain that comes from the past starts to effect your actions and more important, re-actions to others in the field. If I can help you with answers to question that you may have I give you my word, I will do what ever I can to help you find those answers, for if I do not know them I know the right people that may. I am starting off slowly for now, that is why I'm doing the easy stuff first like the ghost thing at the moment.(the paranormal kiddie pool as it be...no offense to those that only focus on that topic, but the powers that be DON'T TRY TO KILL YOU for what you may find in that field not to mention ghost hunting easy in so much as they don't go anywhere and can always be found in the same spots) Ghost hunting is not all that simple to be fair to the topic and does require a lot of hard work to do it right but is not as dangerous as other fields.(only one person has been ever been killed by a ghost in, circa 1800s -see Bell Witch info) My resources are open to you (and everyone else) and hope to work with you in the future. Angel my dear, you don't need to hide in the luggage, your more than welcome to come when and if I can get everything lined up. As always, it is just a matter of time and money, the two things I have almost none of. If only I had the funding that they spend on just one TV ad that airs on network (or Fox) late night shows, the work I could do and the answers I could get from it would shock people. Dreaming of things that will never be does me no good, but will not stop me from doing my very best with the ever meager means I have, because I am blessed with good friends who will stand with me and because I have the heart and overwhelming desire to seek truth no matter what path I must walk to find it. I have done it before and will do it again and again until I reach my goals. I WILL NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT and I will RAGE, RAGE against the dying of the light. I thank all of you who dare as I, to look at all that what we do not yet understand and ask that question....Why not?
Matt
|
|
fritzy
New Member
Knowledge gained is not Knowledge understood, it is only Gained
Posts: 25
|
Post by fritzy on Aug 13, 2006 20:42:10 GMT -5
A man once said be gentle as lambs and also sharp as foxes over 2000 yrs ago. Im going with you when you Rage against the dying of the light. Time to stand. Because the lights not going out.
|
|
|
Post by lildebcc on Aug 14, 2006 3:45:24 GMT -5
Going back there will not prove anything about the apparition because there is no guarantee that it will show up again.
I see where you are coming from though, Matt. Having to repeat oneself again and again can be annoying as hell, to say the least. People will always question any kind of 'proof' that another person has, and that's okay and expected. If a person does not want to agree with the evidence that is also fine. But you can not go on beating a dead horse.
One of the things that it all comes down to is the credibility of the people who find and present the evidence. I was not there when the video was taken, but the thing that makes me believe the video is real, is the credibility of the people involved.
Okay, I'm done now...............................time to move on......................Hey, how about those Boston Red Sox?? ;D
>^o.o^<
|
|
|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 14, 2006 7:18:59 GMT -5
Well Deb, I'm not going back to prove what I got. I'm going back to get more if I can. As far as beating a dead horse thing goes, if you do not support what you have EVERY TIME it is challenged, then what would be the point of putting up anything at all. If you don't support what you get, then the misrepresentation and mistakes of others that are questioning it, will be all thats known about it. (thats just basic research procedure of evidence and defense) I agree that I could use a little more tact in the way I defend it, but will not and can not allow misrepresentation(either deliberate or unintentional) to be ignored just because it may be easier, thats bad science. Many people may not agree on things they are presented with in this field, and I am among them as well as everyone else. I respect a persons opinion and the right to have one, but when it crosses the line from opinion to a theory(opinions are expressed and theories are argued), then its open to response and requires rebutting. So you see I beat a dead horse not because I want to, but because, I must in order to defend what is truth based on the facts I know. It would be cool if we could all play nice, but thats just not realistic or practical and doesn't get us closer to the answers. As far as the Red Sox.... couldn't give a hoot, because I'm not 8 years old anymore and have much bigger things to focus on then on a bunch of overpaid crybabies who are not smart enough to hold a real job but hey, thats just my opinion.
Matt
|
|
|
Post by aneaglesangel on Aug 14, 2006 9:08:04 GMT -5
Funny you say all that Melba! A good friend of mine who's an investigator had some of the same ideas. I guess there is a group around who always puts other teams evidence down and it was discouraging him. There are teams out there I guess who won't accept evidence unless it was their own. I've never met this team, and I'm not sure who they are, but it seems very unfair to put everyone else's evidence down the way this team did! He's got some great evp's and he was afraid to share them because of this team!
You make some really great points, and it brings me to think of what I call psyence. I believe that in order to prove the paranormal, the psy side and sci side have to get together!! Over the course of time being a mod/admin with some great ghost people, I've learned quite alot on both sides! But the thing that keeps slapping me in the face is the psy of it all! Yes, we can collect evidence until the cows come home, we can examine pics and learn how to avoid false positives, we can tape evp's and we can have personal experiences, but I think until the field has actually been brought forward into the light, you'll always end up having a few of these that don't share well with others!! Heck we all know I love to look at pics and try to figure out what caused an anomoly in a pic!! I never grow tired of learning in this field!!
But I think what we really need to do to bring the field forward, is to start working together to bring it into the light. There are ways to prove if a pic has been edited or not, heck, The Spirit Society has a hoax checker built into the photo editing software!! I don't know why so many are wanting to make hoaxes, and I don't know why so many want to call everyone else's evidence fake, but that seems to be the way of the world. I long for the day when the science and the psyence get together and work hand and hand! I am really getting somewhere lately, I've got real live scientists who are very interested in the psychic side! Though their eyebrows are raised, they can't deny some of the things that they've been witness to, or have read and they are beginning to realize this is an integral part of investigation. It's hard to find people with these gifts, but I have to say, the websites have got me into contact with some of the most interesting and accurate sensitives I've ever had the pleasure to meet!
So science and technology can tell us when someone is trying to fake us, but the psychic side, thoough it too is something that can be faked, needs to find a way to join the mainstream science in all of this! For I think that once the two have joined and are working together, we'll find more amazing information and evidence than we'll know what to do with!! The only problem is the way things are going, I'm almost sure this won't happen until we've all passed on to the other side!! See ya there melba!! I've got lots of scaring and goosing to do, muwahahaha!!!
|
|
|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 14, 2006 12:11:02 GMT -5
Angel and Mel, you both have it wrong. You are confusing or mixing up and blending two dissimilar schools of thought. Science uses the rules of evidence in the analysis of data. (ie- tech. specs for the equipment and laws of science that can be verified, measured and repeated thus showing to be true or false) This is what MUST be used in hard evidence review to prove or disprove what is submitted, this and this alone is the only way for the establishment of cold hard FACTS, no if's and's or but's. That is the nature of science, it removes emotion, speculation and preconception from the analysis. You do not need to be a scientist to do this, but you must follow its rules for it to be considered VALID. The other school of thought is- consensus of opinion-(ie- everyone puts their two cents in and the most common thought or loudest in most cases is what is adopted with little to no regard for truth or any and all possibilities or impossibilities for the establishment of facts) This a popular school of thought, mainly because everyone can contribute and no support for the thought is required, other than everyone else FEELING the same way. In this school of thought, how you came to your conclusion or came up with the thought does not matter-(ie-my gut told me, I saw one like this and it was a....., I channeled it from ZONTAR and he says...) This is just like a popularity contest or like lemmings schooling in one direction or the other with little aim or direction other than wanting to be part of the crowd. One school is a science the other is sociology( the study of sociology is a science but being the subject of it is not...sorry folks) It comes down to this- what you can prove to yourself and others buy reliable and known methods that can be re-tested and re-proved is called FACTS. What is said, thought, and voted on is called SPECULATION. That is why most skeptics have fieldays with the results from evidence of the paranormal as most of it that is presented is from the "fun" school. That is why you have and get no real respect from any serious forms of academia. It does not matter if it is the best in the world -photo or recording or whatever kind of evidence you have. If it does not have hard established methods and certification of facts behind it, then its just someones opinion of what they have, and opinions are like.... well you know the rest.
Matt
|
|
|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 14, 2006 13:15:02 GMT -5
I don't give a rats but what people believe, I care about what they can PROVE. Thats the point. Now you say that things are going to be discounted and picked apart, well if it is done in scientific manner then you are only going to get closer to the truth and if it is not done that way then your more the fool for listening to crap then the one spouting it. Science does not leave out emotions or awe and wonder about the unknown, we just use don't use it to explain it, that is the difference.
Matt
|
|
|
Post by Tim Weisberg on Aug 14, 2006 14:39:07 GMT -5
As far as the Red Sox.... couldn't give a hoot, because I'm not 8 years old anymore and have much bigger things to focus on then on a bunch of overpaid crybabies who are not smart enough to hold a real job but hey, thats just my opinion. Matt Heeeeyyyy.....I make my living caring about those over-paid crybabies! And you'd be surprised...some of them are pretty intellectual guys. In fact, I know an NBA player who grew up near the Amityville House and has a strong interest in the paranormal.
|
|
|
Post by Matt Moniz on Aug 14, 2006 17:54:42 GMT -5
I would like to say I'm so sorry to anyone I have offended in the past few days. I made the stupid move of putting a check in an ATM on Friday and foolish me though it would be available on sat. as has been for me every other time for the past 8 years. Well it wasn't and that left me without money for going on 3 days and still will until tomorrow. To make matters even more stressing I got my car towed after the sat. show. The tow comp. would only take cash and is collecting storage charges as it sits. So from sat. night to now I have had no car and no money and NOTHING TO EAT for 2 days and that can make me a little, shall we say venomous. So if I am a little testy, please take it with a grain of salt. I am not in a good mood and am taking out on others and that is wrong, but I am man enough to admit when I do something wrong. Please forgive me all those that may have got caught in the crossfire. (melba, deb, angel, tim ( but I still think they are overpaid crybabies)
|
|
|
Post by aneaglesangel on Aug 14, 2006 18:01:09 GMT -5
LOL! Hmm, I don't know if I explained myself too well there,guys! I don't think science should be put aside. But the point I have to make is science can't give me all the answers. For an example, I was 8 when I had the dream and knew my father was going to die before I turned 18. I KNOW I lived with this secret, hoping if I didn't say anything, it wouldn't come true. But it DID! Now from what I've read about these events, is that science would call it a seizure. I never saw this event when I was 8 years old. I saw it as it was happening, had a seizure and time clicked in my brain. That's a rather rough description, but I'm saving time, but the point to me is this, did I have a seizure for almost 10 years that culminated in my father's death??? Sorry, but I just can't believe that, but yet, this is the only answer science can give me.
So this small point being made, I have to say, science can give me many facts, it can tell me why SOME of the things have happened, but not ALL of them! But, first before anything, I have to look at the science of something. Yes, I am in the beginning stages of learning photography, and I am prone to blunder because of it, but that's the point right there, I am learning it. I want science to be the background for the decisions that are made, BUT, I have to accept the psy side of it also. I think science has to begin to accept it too. The only reason being is that the answers can not all be found with only science. Yes, a picture can be proven or disproven with science, and maybe that's all that you guys are concerned with. But for myself, I can't have only have the picture, and that's what I feel I will have, if I do not accept the psy side of things. I wish I could tell you how hard it has been to give up everything I have been taught and learned during my life to go the way I am at this time. For me the answers are not all black and white. But for you guys they are. I can understand that, it's just I think sometimes, there will be things that are experienced by people that will not fit into the science categories we have at this time. I do think someday in the future what I'm calling psyence will have scientific explanations. I believe alot of the answers lie right inside our brains. So, Matt, I don't ever want you to think that I do not respect and love to learn from you!!! I just have to step away a little and continue to do the experiments that I have been. They are not scientific experiments in the eyes of the science community, but I think someday, what I'm doing will be more accepted. I think what I'm doing at this time gets thrown into the hodgepodge of the metaphysical world! But just because I have stepped slightly away to bridge a new path for myself, the science is still a basis in my life, I'll never be able to get away from it. I can only read about this equipment and try to understand it, and how it works. I do not ever get an opportunity to use this kind of stuff and am happy that I have a limited supply of materials to hunt with.
I agree with you all evidence produced should be analyzed in a scientific manner, but what I'm asking for is the science community to give the psyence a chance. I can't explain the things I've experienced with science, there is more, and I think someday, the laws of science will be changed to better understand this phenomena!
This is just an example, so you understand better. Let's say a person goes with you to a haunted spot they've never been to. While there, the person has a psychic event and tells you names, dates, etc of the history of the spot. You go and research and find out the person was 100% right. Would science accept that as scientific evidence? No, I'm sure they wouldn't. But can science someday explain this psychic event, the hows and whys of it happening?? Hell yeah, is my answer on that!! I hope you understand me better this time!! I do sooo love science and learning more about it, it's just I can't step back and not accept the very real phenomena I've expereinced. So all I got left to say, is thanks, I'm glad I get to work with ya, and glad I don't have to ride in the suitcase!!!
|
|
|
Post by lildebcc on Aug 14, 2006 18:13:02 GMT -5
LOL - I agree, they do overpay the crybabies We all have our moments, so, no problem Matt, we still love ya ;D Hope things turn around for you soon. >^o.o^<
|
|
|
Post by lildebcc on Aug 14, 2006 18:16:31 GMT -5
Well, aneaglesangel, maybe all things in life are not supposed to be explained and reasoned out. Sometimes things happen just because they happen. Maybe it would be good to have all the answers, but that's way too much work. I would rather have some of the answers, and let other people find the rest of the answers. That way, you have some time to enjoy life.
>^o.o^<
|
|